Building An Audience With Impact – Michael Duncan (Ruthless Podcast)

Michael Duncan:

The podcast is a great outlet for a lot of this frustration, right? Now, finally, we have like an opportunity to be part of that conversation.

Eric Wilson:

I'm Eric Wilson, managing Partner of Startup Caucus, the home of campaign tech innovation on the right. Welcome to the Business of Politics Show. On this podcast, you are joining in on a conversation with entrepreneurs, operatives, and experts who make professional politics happen. Today we're talking with Michael Duncan, a founding partner at Cavalry, an issue management firm that works with Fortune 500 companies, trade associations, political candidates, and nonprofit organizations. He's had an extensive career in digital campaigning, but he is also the host of the Ruthless podcast, which has taken the g o p political world by storm over the last three years. It's a must list, and for me, they were just tapped to provide the pregame coverage for the first Republican presidential debate. Later this year, in our conversation, we talk about the growth of the podcast, what lessons he's learned as a content creator, and how he thinks more campaigns can embrace the power of audience code. So, Michael, we know ruthless as a successful endeavor and a key media fixture in Republican politics. You've got all of the presidential candidates stopping by, but I don't think that was obvious to everyone else. Maybe it was obvious to you when you started out three years ago, and, and certainly out of the ordinary for a team of professionals in a public affairs and political consulting firm to take on. So, what gave you and the guise the conviction to pursue building ruthless and really get that started?

Michael Duncan:

You know, I don't think we had any expectations really. You know, it was during Covid. I think we were just kind of getting bored, honestly. And we were doing Zoom meetings everyone from the office during happy hour during COVID <laugh> you know, as a lot of offices did during those days where you were sort of disconnected from the world and you're watching a lot of tv and, you know, for us being, you know, political professionals working on campaigns and getting very, very frustrated with everything and having no outlet, right. <Laugh>, right. And and so, you know, after, after doing enough of those Zoom meetings and you know, having a couple of cocktails we started saying to ourselves, you know, this might actually make for a pretty good show and a good conversation. And we kind of went from there. You know, I don't think we had any anticipation it would, it would get as large as it it is now. But, you know, we were enjoying doing it. It it, it seemed like a, a shame not to try.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. Well, I didn't, I didn't know that. That's such a, a, a cool origin story. You, and I think there's a lesson I would extract from that, which is you weren't trying to force it to, to be something. You're just sort of saying, Hey, this is, this is something we're doing. We think we could turn it into content and, and, and make it available to other, other people. So out of this idea, you know, things started to snowball. Give us a, a sketch of your journey to where you are today. What were some of the milestones that you guys look back on?

Michael Duncan:

Man, it's, it's, so much has changed. I would say, you know, we, we, we started this thing, like I said, you know, on Zoom during Covid, I, and I think our first episode was in October of 2020, right before, you know, the run up to election day. And we're basically, you know, plugging U s B mics into the side of computers and <laugh> just, you know, trial and error, figuring out what we're gonna do, you know, and so we, we kind of look back fondly on those early days because I think you know, keeps you humble in the whole thing, and you don't get too big of a head, which I think is probably you know, a good thing in, in, in, you know, the media game overall. But like, you know, those early days we definitely learned a lot.

And because, you know, it's, it's a, it's a strange business podcasting. You know, it's you're distributing to, to platforms you know, so much of the metrics is sort of opaque, right? You don't really know what's gonna be successful. You're feeling your way around in the dark. You know, but to your point earlier, you know, because we do this for a living, it was sort of natural for us to be able to have the conversation. We didn't really have to force it. And so, you know, it, it came pretty, pretty naturally. I think when I think back to some of the milestones. I think one of our, our early episodes with Ted Cruz, right after he'd had that whole thing with the flying to Cancun

Eric Wilson:

<Laugh>. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Duncan:

And he came on our show. It was his first media appearance after that whole kerfluffle. Right. And you know, our show's pretty light. We cover a lot of hard news, but we try to mix it up and keep people entertained always. I,

Eric Wilson:

I'd say irreverent probably this Yeah,

Michael Duncan:

Yeah, yeah. For sure. Irreverent. And you know, Senator Cruz gets on and you know, Josh kind of asks some sort of tongue in cheek. I'm like, you know, been up to anything interesting this week, senator. And you know, he's just sort of laughing and he is like, you know, I haven't had a week this bad since the Bay Area in the 1960s, <laugh> <laugh> Oh, geez. Joking about you know, they say he's the Zodiac killer or whatever. And so, you know, he sort of set the tone. And so I think you know, at, at that point we realized people got what we were trying to do. Yeah. And even politicians come on the show and have a good time. And it was you know, it's sort of unique to the, to the medium of, of podcasting, you know, that you can, you don't have to work in 32nd soundbites. There is no commercial break Absolutely. That you're button up against. And so, you know, politicians are naturally more relaxed and have an ability to really tell you what they wanna say and maybe show you more personality. You'll learn a lot more about them than you would on, on primetime cable news. So I'd say that's another milestone, for sure.

Eric Wilson:

Right. And I think one of the things that's kind of challenging about the, the show that you guys do is, it's, it's definitely not a rah rah. Everything everyone in our party is doing is right. But also you do have these really, you know, big name politicians coming on and, and, and willing to be there, because I think they do know that that's a, a trusting safe space, if you will to come have those longer conversations and, and stretch your legs.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah. I mean, I don't think you know, I don't, I don't think anybody would say we go easy on our, our side on the, on the show. You know, I think we give every politician who comes on an opportunity to tell their story and, you know, we're not gonna hit 'em with a, you know, a gotcha question that is you know, in bad faith that you frequently see from so many in the media right. And allow people to explain things on their terms, you know? And I mean, frequently our guests disagree with, you know, with stuff. And you know, I think, you know, we've always sort of seen our show as, as a forum for the audience. They get to hear from different perspectives within the Republican party, which is obviously a wide tapestry of different opinions, <laugh> on everything from foreign policy to economics to social policy. So, you know, we, we just kind of try to be that open forum, give tons of our own opinions, because I think authenticity is such a huge part of the medium. And then, you know, trust the audience to make their own decision.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. It's you're, you're, you are really assuming the top of the intelligence for your audience. I think that's one of the keys for successful podcasting and something, you know, we try and do here. I'm curious to hear about other lessons that you have learned, Michael, as, as becoming a creator. You know, 'cause you're, you're on the other side of the microphone than where you previously had been. What, what stands out to you? What are you, what are you filing away?

Michael Duncan:

You know, the, the media industry is, is, especially when it comes to partisan media is, is so interesting to me. I, I think it's a lot like sports in so many ways. Because there's, I, I guess I'm just sort of shocked how many people are in, you know, conservative media or liberal media doing a show every single day and have very little idea, frankly, what they're talking about. <Laugh>, right? Yeah. <laugh> the, it it's

Eric Wilson:

Like the political strategists who haven't worked on a campaign in, in a decade plus.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think you see this in sports too, right? A lot of armchair quarterbacking of stuff. And, and look, I think that's, that's a worthwhile exercise to have people who are interested in politics you know, as, as novices people who aren't prac, you know, practitioners of, of, of political campaigns and things like that. But I mean, so much of the commentary is, is is pretty uninformed in there mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and really it's just an echo chamber of other stuff that they read. And the problem with that is it leads to a lot of group think and a lot of stuff that isn't true but gets people very angry and tells people exactly what they want to hear. And I don't think it trusts the audience, right? Like, and I don't think it's an authentic you know, part of of politics.

And so, I mean, it sort of shocked me like how pervasive that is. Now that, you know, it's something that we do very frequently. But it also gives us an opportunity to countervail that and I think countervailing it in a smart way based on you know, our experience doing the job. Right. Right. And in, in doing that, we, we sort of like, I don't even think it's purposeful. It's just because we, you know, we have the experience of of seeing how this works. Brass tacks in a campaign can tell you, that's real. That's not real. This person's selling you a bill of goods, or this is something the party should be looking to do in the future. I think a perfect example of that is, you know, coming out of 2022 you know, the, what the real fallback scapegoat of Republicans sort of underperforming the red wave we anticipated based on the polling is, oh, well, you know, the Democrats, they have this unbeatable, you know, absentee and early vote and ballot harvesting thing, <laugh>.

And, and, and that's, that's the reason why we we lost, is just, you know, they, they can manufacture these votes and, and, and we're not going out there getting the ballots. And it's really a failure, failure of the establishment of the party. And it's like, well, I'll keep, you know, first thing is, you know, Donald Trump sort of poisoned the well there in 2020 with absentee and early vote mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and we're gonna have to dig ourselves out of a cul out of a cultural deficit on the issue in a major, major way. I think it's worthwhile doing those things. But if you go ahead and you point out the fact that New Hampshire has very little absentee and early vote, like, you know, like 98% of it is on election day, and we got our doors blown in New Hampshire, you know, maybe that's significant. Maybe it's significant to know that all of this is, is, is on the edges and we should do it, but we shouldn't be looking at things like that as a scapegoat and then sweep the real problems under the rug, which a lot of people like to do in this line of work.

Eric Wilson:

Well, and that, that speaks to, you have to have the expertise to, to be able to look at the, the data and know that Yeah. Some states don't even have early voting. Right. And Right. And so being able to call out the, the balls and strikes, that's one of the reasons why I, I frame this show as the business of politics. Yes, we're talking to people who are building businesses in politics, but I don't think you can understand professional politics in the United States today without knowing that it is a business. Right. And there's a lot of money at, at stake, and, and it drives so much of what's happening. Again, I, I don't want people to get out there conspiracy theory boards or anything like that, but it, it, it, it, it is an, an aspect and like you, I mean, I, I think it's just, it's, it's just crazy the number of people who have reinvented A B E V, chase <laugh> which something we were really good at for a long

Michael Duncan:

Time. You're very, very good at. And the, and the thing I constantly point back to for people, 'cause it sounds like ancient history now, right? Like, everybody woke up yesterday and Donald Trump's the only president we've ever known as Republicans, right? <Laugh>. Yeah. You know, in, in, in, in 2016, John McCain had a phenomenal absentee in early vote operation in Arizona that they have a permanent early voter list that the Republicans used to dominate for forever in the state. And it's, you know, one of the reasons why Donald Trump and McCain did so well in the state in, in 2016, and then we sort of abandoned that as strategy. And you're right. I mean, it's like we are now reinventing the wheel. Like everybody came up with this brilliant idea yesterday, and frankly, no, we abandoned the idea. That is what happened. But it, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier where it's like a lot of people, because they, they don't really practice politics on, on a campaign or a legislative side, you know, they see what other people are saying, and then everybody starts to get into this group think of this is the thing that would've made the difference that that will solve the problem.

Eric Wilson:

It, it's like we set up a bunch of furbies together and they start talking to each other. Yeah.

Michael Duncan:

It turns

Eric Wilson:

To nonsense.

Michael Duncan:

And then, like you were saying, it's because it is business as well, it's like, well, you know, everything's a hammer when you're a nail. Right? It's like, right.

Eric Wilson:

Yep. <laugh>.

Michael Duncan:

It's like nobody wants to be like, well, it was my fault. It's actually all this one thing, and by the way, I need your money to do that thing. Right. And so you know, there's a lot of perverse incentives but that's why we love doing the show, right? Because like, rather than having to be just sitting on a campaign and doing the conference calls and keeping your head down, the, the podcast is a great outlet for a lot of this frustration, right? <Laugh> like, now, now finally, we have like an opportunity to be part of that conversation, which I, you know, I hope is, is, is good for the party, and it's certainly helpful in taking my stress level down.

Eric Wilson:

I am I am constantly nervous that I'm going to say something on this show that upsets someone that I work with that you know, that, that someone's whose opinion matters to me, and it's gonna cause repercussions. I can't imagine doing what you guys are doing and having to have a co-host like smug on there, <laugh> I mean, does it, does it get you in trouble e ever, you don't have to give a specifics, but like, how, how has that changed things for you?

Michael Duncan:

I mean, I think to various degrees it does all the time. But, you know, people get thick skin about, this is politics after all. You know, if you don't get thick skin, you're not lasting very long in it <laugh>. And so, you know, I, I think in the, in the short run, yeah, I mean, sure, I'm sure some people were upset with various things we said over, you know, periods of the show. And we certainly get hate mail from listeners all the time, but I'm not gonna change a thing about what I say on the show, and I'm pretty clear about that because I think ultimately I, I'd rather have people who, you know, listen to the show because they know I'm telling you exactly what I think than what you want to hear. And, you know, likewise, on the consulting side of our business you know, even when people don't like what I'm saying, they appreciate that I'm, I'm gonna say it because why would you wanna hire somebody for advice if they weren't telling you their real advice? <Laugh>,

Eric Wilson:

Right.

Michael Duncan:

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so ultimately it's net net, net positive, and doing the show and doing the consulting work as well, I think has made us better at both, both sides of the business <laugh>.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. And that's, that's my experience as well. So doing the podcast, writing the blog, compiling newsletters that sharpens my thinking, helps me organize my thoughts, and I think it makes me better as a professional all around it. It also gives me kind of a test bed for trying this stuff out. Right. So I, I know what's working for email acquisition right now. Yeah. I know. What the best platforms out there for, for newsletters. What are, what are some other ways that it's impacted your, your, your business creating this, this content? Because I mean, I'll just give my plug here. I think everyone should be a content creator in some regard to, to, to try this out, to, to sharpen your thoughts. And I'm just curious to hear some other impacts that you've experienced.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I, I totally agree. Like at the top, like, I mean, if you have some expertise that you feel like other people should know about, do more with it. You know, blog about it, do a podcast about it, do a YouTube channel, do something. Because like, you're gonna get better at that thing too, just by organizing thoughts of how you do it. You know, for, for me you know, I think we, we've built like stronger relationships with, with a lot of folks in the Republican party because of the show. And we've been able to, to, you know, be helpful for, for people on the hill people out there you know, running state parties and stuff when like, there's something important that they think, you know, people need to have their eyes on or mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, stuff that might not get covered in prime time on Fox News, but is a worthwhile exchange in a committee hearing that is really gonna have repercussions in three months or four months when an investigation, you know, comes to the end.

Like, that's the sort of stuff that like, you know, I'm, I'm glad we have the show so we can serve as a platform for, for that sort of thing. And then also, like, you know, with, with, with the listeners, just being able to hear from, you know, our audience across the country and the world, frankly. I mean, you know, we've got a lot of listeners, which is, this is weird, I, I never would've thought about it, but a lot of you know, American military serving abroad, you know and all, all over the, a lot of in the Middle East you know, in Japan and Germany and whatnot. But like hearing from them about what they think is important in politics or interesting about the show, like, I think makes me better at my job in marketing politics on, on the consulting side, right.

Eric Wilson:

You're listening to the Business of Politics Show. I'm speaking with Michael Duncan, co-founder of Cavalry and co-host of the Ruthless Variety Program podcast. Michael, what's something that most people don't understand about the ways that entertainment and media are shaping politics today?

Michael Duncan:

I think there's a massive gulf between what the media thinks people want and their political news and how they actually like consuming information. People like being entertained rather than being lectured to, if they had the choice, if they really had the choice <laugh>. And they'll engage in, in, in long form content as long as it speaks to them, like the conversations they have in their real life. I mean, like, who has lunch around the conference table or goes out with their friends for beers and they only talk politics. <Laugh> only politics. Yeah. Literally no person on planet Earth does that. But we insist on generating so much content in politics that is exclusively, that. It just doesn't speak to people in a way that they would want to be having a conversation. So, like, that's not what we do with our show, obviously.

You mix in other stuff, stuff that's funny, stuff that's compelling conversation, debates, you know, things that you would do with your buddies over beers. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I think that's why like Gut Fell's show on Fox has been so successful, right? Like, it's just a different sort of format for political news. You know, I, I love the people who are super, super, super engaged in politics, listen to our show you know, but whenever we're, we're putting out a show, I'm always thinking about like, my buddies back home in Indiana, like the guys I knew from high school or, or college like, would they listen to this? Right? Right. Like, people with like busy lives and like little time each, each week to stay up on current events and like, want to be entertained in the process. And they, they wanna know, like, here, here are the three things I really need to think about this week.

That, you know, if people are talking politics, you know, I wanna be up to date on, but like, you know, I don't wanna just hear one person screaming in my ear for two hours about <laugh>, you know, <laugh>. Yeah. The, the, the, you know, the, the craziest things in politics, like, you have to find ways for people. 'cause Everything's appointment listening now, or appointment viewing and everything. People have routines. They're going grocery shopping. You got half their attention most of the time at best. And so if you're gonna be incorporated in somebody's routine, you're competing with a lot for attention. Right. So you, you gotta make it good. <Laugh>.

Eric Wilson:

And I, I think, you know, there's this tendency, and, and especially on the right, that when we we are discussing politics, it just becomes so joyless and it, it's, it's like no one wants to be on that team. 'cause They don't have any fun. That's right. And, and so I think, you know, it goes back to the idea of be, you know, disagreeing without being disagreeable. It's, it's a hard thing to, to do. You know, it's a, it's a little bit easier on the left because that's the predominant you know, opinion set of elite entertainers and comedians and news producers, things like that. But I I, I, I do think that that's something that we miss the mark on all the time in conservative political media is, is no one wants like the worst of a Facebook comment section Right. To to be the, the north star for our, our, our media.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah. You know, I, but I do, I do think you know, it's, it's part of the way that the internet has democratized politics and there is so much information out there which I think on, on net is probably a, you know, a good, good thing. It's also led us into, I think this sort of fatalism, or like doism mm-hmm. <Affirmative> about politics because people know, you know, the angrier you can make somebody, the more they're gonna be interested in finding out why they need to still be ang. Right. You don't have to, things don't have to be that way, <laugh>. Right. but I think that is part of that group think I was talking about at the top of the show with conservative media is e everyone else in the space is competing to see how angry they can make you on a daily basis.

And so that space has become very cluttered with people who are, you know, primed to be like, all right, well, how outraged am I supposed to be today? And you should be outraged by a lot of stuff. But it, it shouldn't mean that you completely lose hope and throw up your hands <laugh>, right? Yeah. You know, every single day. And, you know, so we try to provide some perspective on the show and give people a long view of things because I mean, that, I think that's more honest than saying, you know, that this is the worst day of democracy every single day.

Eric Wilson:

So Michael, what are some of the content creation and audience building lessons? Because I, I think that's a, a real testament to what what you've built with Ruthless is, is the, the term community is thrown around a lot, a little bit too flippantly. But your, your audience has really turned into a community. There's, there's the o it its own lingo, there's merchandise, people come to events. What are those some lessons that you've learned about creating content, building that community that you think campaigns could take on board?

Michael Duncan:

Oh man, there's just a ton, ton of things because, I mean, look, I understand a lot of campaigns are moving so fast and you're trying to build so quickly that you forget the little things. But like, the little things is what makes it, and people really forget that in politics. Like having a human touch back to your audience is huge, man. I mean, it builds like a real relationship with the audience and makes people evangelists for the show. You know, I mean, our fans do, I mean so much. They crowdsource stuff. We do this you know, hack Madness for the worst liberal media figures. Sort of a march, March Madness, ripoff thing. That's all crowdsourced from the listeners of the show. We've got some listeners of the show that, you know, hold a clubhouse meeting twice a week and talk about the show.

And we'll try to drop in on that and give people our thoughts or use it as a soundboard for content or what people thought about segments and it makes us better at our job. You know, I think we try to be timely with content from a unique perspective when everybody's paddling one direction with us. You know, a very specific take that has sort of come downstream from this person on Fox Prime Time last night, <laugh>. Yeah. You know, it's, it's an opportunity for us to, to separate from the pack a little bit with, with an informed opinion that I think makes our listeners feel like they're getting something no one else is getting. Right. and it's being

Eric Wilson:

<Crosstalk> and it's a two-way conversation. I think that's right. That's what really stands out about the, the podcast medium.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah. Oh, for sure. You know, we read the Five Star reviews like you said, like, you know, there is a lot of lingo that goes into the show that makes people feel like they're part of the lo of the show. Right. Podcast is like you're in the room having a beer with your friends. And that's how it should feel, whether you're walking the dog or you're driving to work. Because a lot of people, you know, I know in my own life, there's a lot of mundane things that are part of your routine that man you would love to be with your friends talking about sports or politics or some crazy article you saw on Twitter the day before. And so we try to provide that, you know, that atmosphere for people.

Eric Wilson:

Well, it, I'm just laughing 'cause we, we have very different audiences. Obviously. I chose one of the, the smallest niches possible in podcasting. And so we want the business of politics show to feel like you're in a conference room at three 30 in the afternoon, drinking flat Diet Coke, <laugh>. And it's just really interesting to see when you have something that can have that broader appeal, the, the the different things that, you know, this show I'm very grateful to our, our listeners who, who are, are loyal. But it it's also interesting to hear kind of the, the other side of it, which is well,

Michael Duncan:

And that's, but that's authentic to you and to you and the show. Right? That

Eric Wilson:

Feels like a real burn.

Michael Duncan:

Michael. No, no, no, no, no.

Eric Wilson:

<Laugh> the

Michael Duncan:

Show, the show is called Business of Politics. Right? Right. And so it wouldn't be authentic for you to try to do it in the format that ruthless is. Right. Right. And it's easier to make the content and wanna do it every week when it is true to what you're trying to accomplish. You know, and that's what I've, I'll never understand about this business is the people who try to squeeze themselves into this box that they think an audience wants them to be. Boy does that have to be exhausting <laugh>. Yeah.

Eric Wilson:

Right? Yeah. And, and, and it's, it's sad. You see the contortions that, that have to happen to do that. You know, you and I also work in this online fundraising space. The, you had a, a really good quote in a, a story that I think we were both quoted in the other week about, you know, we're all fishing off of the same pier and, and we, we have really overfished the the supply of donors. I think one of the, the things that's happening is you're just seeing this, the diminishing returns from the digitization of direct mail fundraising, right? So we took

Michael Duncan:

Yeah,

Eric Wilson:

Outrageous copy rented lists, which is the how, how direct mail fundraising works. We put it online and just maxed it out. I really think that one of the ways forward is, is tapping into the creator economy, the tools that we're seeing out there, sub stack Patreon only fans, whatever it is that, that is helping creators connect with their audiences to generate revenue and sustain that content. Do you see that are there anyone, or is there anyone in the political space from a candidate side trying this out or, or, or testing this out?

Michael Duncan:

I think I've seen some folks doing that and in various parts of it, right? I mean, you've got you know, Joe Biden's campaign has made a lot of overtures to, you know, influence our communities and bringing it into the White House, and you've got these kids on TikTok with all the talking points and that sort of thing. I've heard a couple of candidates Vivek, Ram Swami comes to mind mm-hmm. <Affirmative> about offering something back to a community that's willing to get involved on, you know, small dollar fundraising through sort of a peer-to-peer network thing. You know, you get, you know, 10% of every dollar you bring in and, you know, you can get in on these weekly strategy calls or invite invited to exclusive events and that sort of thing where you're giving back. And that, I mean, that is a thing I think, you know campaigns could definitely learn from creators. And, and sort of the influencer economy is like when you created something like a Patreon, boy, you gotta give something for that, right. <Laugh>, you know, just Yeah. You're not just like, oh, I have your $5 a month, I have your, you know, $10 a month you know, thanks for the revenue. It's, you gotta give something back. Here's some

Eric Wilson:

Spam. Yeah. <laugh>.

Michael Duncan:

Yeah. Yeah. It's like we, you know, we don't, we don't really treat that relationship with the donor as much as we should as a two-way street. And so, you know, campaigns I think would, would, would really benefit from, from starting to do that. And I think also you know, I think, I think campaigns could benefit from working more with creators to do, you know, fundraisers, you know, virtual fundraisers. I know the Biden campaign did a ton of those in 2020 because of Covid with, you know, celebrity like Hollywood celebrities, you know? Right. Like, get on this, this virtual fundraiser, we'll talk about this stuff you wanna talk about. Some of it's not gonna be political, but you're interested in me. And so you'll spend 30 minutes listening to it. And also, hey, if you give 25 bucks, you can elect Joe Biden. Wouldn't that be great?

And we don't really do much of that on our side of the aisle, which I think is a big missed, missed opportunity. I think also, you know, for, I I think of a show like us, and I don't know how many, you know, shows would be willing to do this. We've, we've thought about doing it. I know Pod Save America does it with you know, they, they do various fundraisers for slates of candidates or, you know, different races, strategic races in an election cycle. I think we should lean in more to that because you know, I think, you know, we, we'd like to do more of that ourselves. And, you know, we obviously have very strong opinions about how resources should be allocated in campaigns and, you know, if, if I very quickly had a link you know, to, to send ruthless listeners to, to say like, this is a project that should be funded, you know, we could do that more.

Right. And, and I think we're, you know, like you were saying earlier about how we've just basically burned out the same audience on, on email and text as as, as we did through through mail. You know, I, I think a lot of people are becoming more discerning. And so that relational marketing is gonna be very important. People with, you know, trusted opinions that, that people, you know, turn to things like, like our show, or if you think about the way that people would, you know, bundle donations to an organization like Club for Growth, right? And you'd, you'd get a glossy mailer from the club and say, here are the candidates we're interested in supporting this cycle. Here are the resumes, here are the reasons why we think they can win. Would you fund this effort? And that sort of additional step of sort of, you know, vetting and building a relationship with, with a donor. I think we, we've sort of lost in politics in the last six years. And I think part of that is probably gonna come back more in the creator economy.

Eric Wilson:

Well, thanks to Michael Duncan for a great conversation. You can learn more about him in the links in our show notes. Go subscribe to the the Ruthless podcast. It's a fun listen if this episode made you a little bit smarter or gave you something to think about, you know, all we ask is that you share it with a friend or colleague. You look smarter in the process. So it's a win-win all around. You can subscribe to the Business of Politics Show wherever you get podcasts, so you don't ever miss an episode. Visit business of Politics podcast.com/join to learn how you can become a supporter of the show. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

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