Incorporating Props & Symbols Into TV Ads – Casey Phillips (Hereford Agency)

Casey Phillips:

My brain works in very weird ways. Number one is that when a script comes, I can't get to the laptop fast enough.

Eric Wilson:

I'm Eric Wilson, managing partner of startup caucus, an investment fund and incubator for Republican campaign technology. Welcome to the business of politics show on this podcast, we bring you into conversation with the entrepreneurs who build best in class political businesses, the funders who provide the capital and the operatives who put it all together to win campaigns. Our guest today is Casey Phillips principal at the Herford agency. He's written and produced more than a thousand political television and radio ads across all 50 states, single handedly keeping TV stations in business. He's worked at the NCC and RSLC and serves as a general consultant on campaigns. He's also written and produced a really great feature documentary called win loser draw straws about the ways different tie breakers are resolved in elections across the country. We talk about what goes into an effective TV ad, what it takes to cut through the noise in today's crowded media landscape, and what happens in the final weeks of the campaign. Casey, it might be an understatement to say that you like props and big set decoration in your shoots. I was watching your sizzle reel on your website and saw a pool table, a giant cable spool, a shoe, and a hamburger flame throwers, a rocket and a monster truck. You're basically the carrot top of political TV ads. What is it about these physical elements that you find to be so effective in the spots that you create?

Casey Phillips:

Well, I gotta say that's a huge compliment right there. The carrot top of political ads you know, I have a mullet, but not red hair. So

Eric Wilson:

I was afraid Gallagher would not be modern enough people. Wouldn't wouldn't get

Casey Phillips:

That one. They might not get it, but I hopefully, you know, obviously I pull inspiration from everything I see around me in the world. And to me, you you've got language, right? And then you've got symbols and visuals, and that's the magic of being able to do you know, political TV commercials or TV or video in general, whether no matter how it gets to the person is that you get a chance to speak to them, both in the audio world and through the visual means. So honestly, especially when you thinking about language and and words and communicating idea, sometimes symbols are the fastest way to do that, right? You look at flags and you look at seals, architecture you know, props symbolism you know, works a ton for political. And it's very important in my work, I believe.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. And it is sort of that visual fluency, right, where you've, you've got 30 seconds to make a point. And if you can layer on the visuals, it's, it's that much more powerful.

Casey Phillips:

Yeah. It's, you know, the jargon is one thing, but the visuals and the jargon is another. So for me building the world that I want the audience to live inside is a big part of how I construct my scripts in general. So, I mean, I am happy to do a candidate, right. To camera with nothing, you know, stripped down top down, lighting messages, everything. But in our current, you know, TikTok watching generation and everything's getting quicker and quicker and smaller and smaller and faster, you know, if you have a flame thrower to monster truck, right. You know, they, it get, maybe you'll get a little bit more time for, with, with the viewer. That's the thought behind it anyway. So it seems to work.

Eric Wilson:

I certainly always stop when I see, you know, why is this candidate in front of a rocket ship, for example you made,

Casey Phillips:

Well, we were, we were blasting CRT books into space, obviously.

Eric Wilson:

<Laugh> I, I can't imagine the paperwork involved in that. Casey, you made one of my favorite ads, this cycle for Ted Budds Senate campaign in North Carolina, it was called a, a tale of two carts. And so if listeners haven't seen it, they can check it out in the, the link in our show notes, but that spot does a really effective job of relating something that is an abstract macroeconomic concept, inflation to a visible, tangible reality for voters. And to your point, it gave them a visual break down that spot for us, kind of how it came about. Cause I think our listeners are interested in, in how something goes from idea to execution to then something that they see on their screen.

Casey Phillips:

The Ted bud campaign is a very important campaign for, for me and my company. We've been with Ted since the very beginning, since he won a 17 way, special election for Congress <laugh>. And so the one thing we're very proud of is the whole team that was there on the first day is still there for, you know, the Senate race. And that's pretty exciting to me. And so Michael Luther, who's literally calling me right now on the other line, tell him

Eric Wilson:

We're busy.

Casey Phillips:

Yeah, I will. He's the general consultant there and he's been a long time friend and we work together to RSLC and so we kind of know each other. And, and our, each other's sort of how we communicate and we do a lot of work together. And so I wrote, you know, 12 different concepts for the opener of the Ted bud ad for this general election. And, you know, Michael looked through them, said he liked a lot of them, but really he thought we needed an ad in a grocery store. And you know, he asked me if I'd done one, I hadn't done one yet. I think we asked around hadn't really seen any. So we decided we were gonna go try to write one. So you know, I'm sitting around and I'm thinking, well, let me go to the grocery store and go to the grocery store. And, you know, I'm sitting there walking around, listening to people talk you know, hopefully not being a creep, but sir

<laugh>, but like, you know, just going about my day, seeing what's, what's more expensive you know, listening to folks talk. And I, I literally hear a woman say to her husband, wow. You know, for the same amount of money, we got half as much stuff and, you know, right then that's, and that's how my brain works. As soon as I heard that, you know, I should have known that I should have been thinking of before, but it takes something like that. I'll often to, to trigger me. And mm-hmm, <affirmative>, my brain works in very weird ways, obviously, as anyone could see from my work. But number one is that when a script comes it's, I can't get to the laptop fast enough. Right. Right. So I don't, I can't write staring at a blank screen with a gun to my head. I have to write, I have, that's why I have so many weird hobbies. Right. I have to like, <laugh> I make my own cheese and my own beer. Right. Because I need something to be doing. So my subconscious can write. So, you know, I get in the car and I'm run I'm, I'm speeding home because I know what the ad's gonna be. And so I get home, knock it out, send it to the team. And you know, they like it, but they've got some, you know, some very smart ways to make it better politically, because I'm thinking about visuals,

Eric Wilson:

You, you then say, okay, we're gonna shoot this. We've got, we've got it on a schedule. You can't go into like a Kroger and, and shoot this. What, what, what does that kind of look like? Well,

Casey Phillips:

Like six years ago, we did go into a HV for Don bacon for that everybody loves bacon ad <laugh>. And they just let us in and we had to deal with peop actual shoppers and it was starting and stopping. I still don't really know why or how that got done. But so you can, but I wouldn't recommend it. So then I had to go to the campaign and say, Hey, we need to find a you know, a nice grocery store to rent. And we found one of those closed on Sundays.

Eric Wilson:

And so we, we now see every campaign is out with their own grocery store spot. It seems like because that, that visual is so powerful. And, and now people know how the, the, the idea and, and concept came about. One of the other trends that I'm I'm tracking this cycle is the growth of, of smart TV advertising. You know, our listeners may know it as OTT over the top connected TV, smart TV. What impact does that have on your work, on the creative side? Well,

Casey Phillips:

I thought of a little about this recently, but it mostly, it boils down to the fact that that is a more targeted you know, medium. So I know more who I'm talking to. So I recently shot an ad that has 12 different endings. Right. Because then I'm going to, yeah. I'm gonna change the ending depending on what what program it's running on. Right. So that's something that I can do. Not only can I, I, or target people, but then I can use the data to say, well, this section of people are, you know, Ohio state fans. And these section of people are, you know university of Florida fans. And then I can, oh, okay. Yeah. Then I can tailor what we're saying directly to them, or, I mean, we've got ad where we threw an inside joke in there that someone would only get if they were watching that particular team or a fan of that team. So so yeah, it just allows us to put stuff specifically into different areas, different groups of people just more of highly targeted messaging which makes a ton of more work for me, but

Eric Wilson:

Right. Yeah.

Casey Phillips:

<Laugh> but I, I always think gives a fun a fun, a, a better, I was trying to, I, I try really hard to see what we do from the end user's perspective. Right. Like I'm barging into their, like,

Eric Wilson:

Someone's gonna have to sit through this

Casey Phillips:

<Laugh> yeah. Yeah. So I wanna give 'em something, right. That makes me think, okay, well, I appreciate your time. So here's, here's a train Eagle, you know, or here's an explosion or but you know, but you can't let I say all this, but you can't let the props or this concept ever overtake the spot in the message. Right. So you can shoot an ad. That's just, you know, the candidate talking about, about something very serious and you can shoot it on an iPhone and it could still go viral and it could still blow up. And I encourage people to do that, you know, have an have something that's them. And, and, and, but if you're, if you're saying, if what you're saying is what people are, are people gonna react to, then you don't need, you know, this, that, or the other thing you don't need to dress it up. The message can carry the day. So you know, I'm, I'm of two minds of this, but I always think that there's a, there's a time and a place for a suborbital rocket, or a tank or

Eric Wilson:

Something like that. <Laugh> right. And, and, and that's just fascinating. I wish I wish the TV ad makers I worked with on some pass campaigns, whereas eager to create more work for themselves as, as you were, I, I remember fighting back in, you know, trying to get six, second spots and 15 second spots for, for digital. And it sounds like, you know, that is now just what you have to do. Sounds like even creating more, almost like choose your own adventure. Creative is becoming just table stake for serious political campaigns.

Casey Phillips:

I think it absolutely is. And you're right. I mean, I remember when we had to all sit down and say, Hey, we need to start writing scripts from the, from the end forward. Right. So it was always like, I've got 30 seconds to get to my point. Now I've got 15. Now I've got six. Right. So I need to take my conclusion and move it to the beginning. And then as a storyteller, you know, it absolutely drives me nuts, but as a political operative, trying to get a message out, like that's the only way to do it. Right. So, you know, there's, people have been telling stories the same way that we are in today since they were all sitting around the campfire, however many millennia go, right. It's not a new process. In fact, it's one of the oldest processes we have as people. So trying to turn that around and tell your, and tell the punchline first is is something new. And I don't love it as much, but that's what we have to do. Like you said, it's ubiquitous.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. So we're in the final stretch of the campaign while we're having this conversation right now, and you don't have to give away any secrets here. Cuz we, we always love those October surprises, but what do these last spots of a campaign look like generally? And, and what goes into that decision making of, okay, this is gonna be our closer. We need to get a spot up responding to this.

Casey Phillips:

Well, my favorite closers are stripped down. My favorite closers are 30 seconds. No breaks, no teleprompters. Obviously I don't even believe in teleprompters. Because I think of make, I can tell from the, you know, from the first three seconds of an ad, if a is reading of a teleprompter, I, I won't use him. I, I used one, one time and it was a disaster cuz a candidate couldn't see it. It was outside. He was peel in a vegetable garden and it ruined everything. So I put the teleprompter away. It's it's not for me. But if you strip everything down and remove everything and so do the opposite of what I'm doing for an intro spot or something to grab everyone's attention. And there's so much messaging flying back and forth in the, in a heated campaign, you know, everybody's negative, they're super PAC screaming.

You're trying to catch your candidates, head above water. And for me it's always been, I mean every year you know, for one of my clients, who's a military guy every year, you kind of go in and you say this campaign was tough. All campaigns are tough. Things were said, but here's what I'm gonna do for you. And this is me and now it's up to you. And for me, that's where you can leave. Even the most negative campaign. You can leave the voters with something that's like this isn't about me. This isn't about them. This is about you. And I'll go to work for you if if you'll have me

Eric Wilson:

Right. Making, making the voter, the hero in their story, you're listening to the business of politics show. I'm speaking with Casey Phillips principle at the Herford agency about the creative behind political video ads, Casey political advertising. Isn't like commercial advertising where you can go out and get actors or a celebrity spokesperson. You mentioned the problem with teleprompters, but how do you work with a candidate who might not be the most comfortable on camera or, or telegenic to, to be effective at video because you, in order to be a candidate today, you've gotta communicate in that medium.

Casey Phillips:

Yeah. The old just voiceover spots don't seem to hit as well as they used to. Right. So ever

Eric Wilson:

Since parks and rec made fun of negative voiceovers, I just, they just don't hit anymore.

Casey Phillips:

<Laugh> maybe that's it. Maybe I'm that maybe that's the answer. So I don't wanna give away all my secrets because that is my that's my bread and butter, right? Like, like my favorite place, my happy place is to be behind a camera, working with a, with a, with a nervous first time candidate <laugh> and bringing out like their very best side of, of their story. Right. I tell 'em all the time, like I'm only as good as your story is. Right. I can't manufacture a story for you. I can only tell your story in the best and most fun and interesting way that we possibly can. So, you know, it's, it's, you, I'm just gonna take you and try to make you better. Right. So I think it's all about as a director you know, onset, I think one of the most important parts is showing the candidate and their people that were there with them, the campaign that you're in control of the situation that you have a of a, you have a master mastery of the crew you know, what's what you're asking for, right?

You're not just saying hi to the DP, like make it pretty, like you're saying, I care about this. I think this is what we should look at. I think we should frame it a little bit differently. Right. So having a good working relationship with your crew and having them respect you creatively, I think is very important because if, if everybody's looking at the director and everyone has confidence in the director that gives confidence to the campaign, to the, and to the candidate, right? So they say, okay, this guy knows what he is doing, or this girl knows what they're doing. Right. And then you, so you're putting them into a flattering situation and they believe that you're putting them into a flattering situation because you care about the lights and you care about where they're standing, you care about what their shirt looks like. Right. So the second I think is locking in the scripts early, right before the day before. And I've, trust me, I've been writing scripts on the way to shoots. I've written some of the best scripts that I've ever written at lunch with a candidate, because I found out something interesting about them. And I just had to run for my, to my laptop. Start

Eric Wilson:

Hearing your laptop with you. It sounds

Casey Phillips:

Like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I do, but I was eating a hamburger and had to put it down and, you know, get the laptop out <laugh> and then I think that getting their sign off early and I always like to incorporate things that I've heard or seen them say in different videos so that they know that I was listening and that, you know, that's their script. It's not just my words because I'm a, you know, 275 pounds, six foot, four former college football player who rode his horse to school in Western South Dakota. Right. So do you intimidate people <laugh> no, no, no, no, no. I just, like, my words might not be the right words for, you know, the suburban mom candidate. And so she and I have to get together and I say, I would say like this and she says, well, I would say like that. And if you listen and you can meet 'em halfway it always gives them more confidence that you're, that you're, that, that we are telling their story cuz their name's on the ballot, not mine. Right. Right.

Eric Wilson:

So these TV ads are the most expensive part of a campaign that, I mean, this is where the bulk of this campaign spending the $14 billion year industry that we always talk about. This is, this is where it's going. So it's highly visible. There are so many critics, everyone in the world thinks that they can, can do the job of a political operative. There is a story out today where, where someone was just sort of riffing on a TV ad script on a, on a donor call. How do you maintain your focus when producing creative for a campaign to get results and not worry about what, what other people might say?

Casey Phillips:

Well, that's a good question, Eric. I don't worry about what other people are gonna say outside of the campaign because that's the people that I care about pleasing and my ego does not come from politics. Honestly.

Eric Wilson:

They're the number of retweets. Yeah. <laugh>

Casey Phillips:

<Laugh> right. Yeah. I don't care. You know, everything that, everything that I put in as to has to sell the candidate, it's not about me. It's not about what people say about my work. Sure. I've I mean, I've got some I've got some critics, you know, and I'm, I'm happy with what they tell what they say about me because sometimes they're the, the feedback is appreciated. Right. I mean I heard someone say, yeah, yeah. Well go to Casey. If you want to be leaning on a fence, post with a straw on your mouth you know, and I say, well, that's pretty fair. And they're like, well, you know, maybe you're gonna be leaning on a truck or driving a tractor and well, you know, maybe that's true too. Right. So then I can get better and then I can go do something else and, and listen to the critics and, and realize that if you got time to be a critic, then you're not working hard enough. And you know, I'm, I'm, I, I can't, you know, I'm, I'm busy, I'm full. And I've got, I've got a lot of people and I, that I care about pleasing and armchair quarterbacks are never gonna be that,

Eric Wilson:

You know, one of my, my rules about criticizing campaign output is, you know, one, I, I, I try not to do it cuz to your point, they're, they're the ones in the arena. They're the ones in the trenches, but you never know what the particulars of a campaign are. You know, it, it is not happening in a vacuum. There are other factors at play. And, and so really knowledgeable people, kind of the, the old adage of those who know, don't tell the, you know, there there's a lot more going on that you're, you're not seeing. So it is really hard to, to criticize. One of our recent guests on the podcast was talking about how, you know, in his interviews with political operatives, their, their performing for their, their peers. But that's not how you build a, a sustained career in this business. It's, it's putting up the points and, and making the results.

Casey Phillips:

Yeah. It's wins and losses. I mean, you know, you can make an ad that's super popular with political consultants and people in the beltway and it doesn't do anything, you know, for the people in the district. And I've made that mistake before. Right. I've thought this is cool. Everyone's gonna think this is cool. And then the voters are like, I don't think this is cool. So you learn and you go on. But you're a hundred percent. Right, right. There's, there's any sort of there's tons of sniping. We saw a big snipe going on around, at, well the N RSC last week. And I don't think anybody came out of that with any better any more business you know, any better, any campaigns in better shape any head, no one got any heads to roll. I mean, it, it was just a exercise in, in yelling at each other for no particular reason and no benefit of anyone. So I, I just don't have, I don't have time for it.

Eric Wilson:

You know, Casey, you're very upfront about the fact that Herford agency, isn't a one stop shop, which means you focus on the, the few things that you're really good at. How does that shape the type of campaigns and projects that you work on? Well,

Casey Phillips:

I think it allows me to bring people together that are good at what they do and make me better at what I do. Right. So if I tried to hire everybody inside Herford, and then I couldn't talk to, you know, another person who's doing another race in a different place. And my candidates only reference point is what's happening in E any of our races. That's not how I wanna operate. And I have absolutely no problem with anybody who does that. In fact, I really look up to a few people who have built awesome, huge companies like that. And but for me, like I know what I'm good at. I mean, I started out as a yard sign guy. I became a campaign manager and I was a door door to door guy. And although I scared a lot of old ladies, I thought I was pretty good at the doors. And I think that was a, it's a

Eric Wilson:

Good think there weren't doorbell cameras back in your door, knocking days.

Casey Phillips:

It would've been terrible. It would've been horrible. They would've been, they'd had my face up on door,

Eric Wilson:

Worst complete rates in the

Casey Phillips:

<Laugh>. Yeah. But you know, I think for me it's more about building something that is building something I want to do, and I'm good at this. And so I'll put myself script for script up against anybody. And so I know maybe I should stay in my own lane and I wanna work with smart people. And I think that you can make more money as a OneStop shop, but it's like my, you know, one of my heroes, Dave Sackett told me when I was starting my business. And he said you know, I don't care what you do. What kind of firm you wanna start if you make your company about people, money comes and if you make your company about money, people run away. Mm. And that's stuck with me as some of the best advice I've ever gotten. And so I try to make sure that I put the campaign and the candidate and the, you know, campaign manager and you know, the spouse and everybody first, because if they're happy and they think, and they think they're getting a good product at a fair price. Well, then I don't need to do, I don't need sales reps. Right. Because people

Eric Wilson:

Know

Casey Phillips:

People are coming back

Eric Wilson:

Well, that, that's a really good piece of, of just general business advice that we try and encourage our entrepreneurs in startup caucus all the time to look at solving the problem. Right. And, and getting closer to, to your users, figuring out what their pain points are and solving for that. And, and, and we see it all the time. I'm a, I'm a big believer in vertical SAS software as a service, because there there's so much pressure to have kind of campaign in a box, one, one app to, to solve everything. And what you end up having happen is you're kind of mediocre at a bunch of things rather than solving one problem really, really well. And, and you may not be for, you know, everyone would like, oh yeah, I'd love to have a, a campaign software that does everything. But, but if you've got something that solves a problem really well, people are gonna come to you. I'm curious to hear from you, is there a problem or challenge in the industry that you'd like to see a startup tackle?

Casey Phillips:

You know, this is gonna be super niche. There, there is a problem in my side of the industry. I, I don't want to get into everybody else's because like, we look,

Eric Wilson:

Look, you're, you're on a podcast about the business of politics. I don't know if it gets any more niche than that, so right. Niche way.

Casey Phillips:

So I think one of the things that, that, that bothers me, and one of the things I know is a, is a pain point in people in our industry is that so much of the elements that we have to work with are filmed and, and made and built and foreign countries in India and Eastern Europe. And so you've got, you know, you've got a, you've got people getting in trouble because they're using this specific voter, you know, putting a ballot in a box, but that ballot is actually like a Tanzania and election ballot and it's, and it's actually being done in like, you know, bulk area, right. And they've got American flags everywhere and all that stuff. And so, and there's just not topical pieces to, to use. So I wind up shooting way more than I would ever have to. I, I wind up spending a ton of staff time tracking down these creators.

And if there's, I mean, just a web crawling tool that could find you stuff that was, you know, made in America or filmed in New Jersey or in Texas or whatever. Maybe it's a stock company. Maybe it's a maybe it's just an app or some way to crawl through and make sure that these, these these pictures, this video, all this stuff, you got rights to it, or you could find rights to it, or you could contact the creators. And so there's just a ton of time wasted on our side, like, oh, no, is this picture of the capital? Did we pay for this license right now? Or do we pay for it two weeks ago on this one? Did we run it? It, you know, or, and or is this is this guy who's building a house of framing, a house in check in you know, in Prague pro or in, or in Pittsburgh. Right. And so I that's super niche, and I know that's probably not what anybody wanted to hear, but that's something that's a huge pain point on, on our side.

Eric Wilson:

Well, I, I think that's a, I, I think there's a, a good business in there for folks, for people who are willing to pay for kind of the insurance premium of, of really safe stock footage. Because look, I mean, there, I can count on my hand, the number of headlines we've already seen this cycle of people getting in trouble for exactly what you're talking about. And, and

Casey Phillips:

Yeah. Like three last

Eric Wilson:

Week. Yeah. <laugh> and I'm just getting nervous thinking about all the campaigns I've been on, where we had to take down an ad or had to go on and explain well, yeah, this was photo of Canada, but we took it from the us side, you know, it's just like yeah. So anyways, that's a, a significant pain point for campaigns. Casey, I wanna say, thank you so much for taking time outta your, your schedule here to, to chat with us. People can learn more about you on your agency's website. See some of those ads that we talked about, there's a link in the show notes, and remember to subscribe to the business of politics show wherever you listen to podcasts and share this episode with a friend, if it made you a little bit smarter. And if you've been listening for a while, really enjoying the show, please go give a rating and a review on apple podcast that really helps with the show and lets me know and get feedback from me of like, you know, are we doing a good job to, to Casey's point about having critics love to hear from you one way or the other with that, I'll say, thank you for listening.

And we'll see you next time.

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