The Possibilities Of Virtual Production – Matthew Mazzone

Matthew Mazzone:

The cost savings add up real quick.

Eric Wilson:

Welcome to the Campaign Trend Podcast, where you are joining in on a conversation with the entrepreneurs, operatives, and experts who make professional politics happen. I'm your host, Eric Wilson. Our guest today is Matthew Mazzone, a partner at Ascent Media Agency, where he leads large scale branding and marketing campaigns. Before getting into agency world, Matt was the director of Film and Visual Media at the Republican National Committee. In this episode, we're talking about virtual production, how it works and what it means for political ad makers. So Matthew, first of all, what is virtual production? Is this like using a green screen to put a backdrop behind someone like our Zoom backgrounds?

Matthew Mazzone:

We've used green screens for, I don't know, the last 10 years or so, and relatively common technology today. Frankly, it's a huge headache for anyone and everyone who does post production. The editing side of things, it can be really finicky, but no, virtual production is not that. It's sort of the next stage or the next iteration of technology where you're combining a virtual environment with a practical, a tangible, real world environment to create an image. So essentially you're using LED screens to broadcast a 3D image and then having actors and props who are also in the shot. So it feels like you're in the living room and really you're on a sound stage. It's really cool, interactive technology.

Eric Wilson:

Got it. So you get more of that depth. You could be interacting with people. It's not someone just in front of that screen. What does it take to build out a virtual production studio? Do you have to go out and film that location separately or can you load up an image on Google?

Matthew Mazzone:

One of the differentiators between just the standard green screen and virtual production is the camera is tracked to the image that we're seeing on the

Eric Wilson:

Screen. Oh, fascinating.

Matthew Mazzone:

And so essentially it's responsive to the camera and it keeps the same perspective. And so if you or eye level and then tilt up with the camera, you're going to see the ceiling, or if you move pan to the left, you're now looking out the window. So it's really interactive in that way. And to get your question specifically about what does it take to build out a studio, you need the space. You need a sound stage, so you need enough depth there for the camera to operate, for the lighting, all those things. But then hardware, you need an LED screen. Typically these things are curved. They wrap around and the screen is made up of different panels of hundreds of little bulbs, and the technology is improving all the time. I just saw actually yesterday, unreal Engine, which is the software that powers this technology. This is a technology that video game makers use to build video games. They just released a video yesterday on Instagram talking about sort of the next stage of virtual production. And sorry, I'm getting off topic here, but it's really cool

Eric Wilson:

Where, no, it's fascinating.

Matthew Mazzone:

The screen that I was using, the bulbs are, it was a great screen, but it was kind of older technology, so you didn't want to focus on the screen. If the camera racked focus to the screen, you could tell, Hey, I'm looking at a screen. You want to keep everything out of focus, but with this new technology on what they're showing on this video, the technology is so good, you can actually focus on the screen. That's cool. And the screen could be a kind of a hero if you needed it to.

Eric Wilson:

So it's closer to virtual reality or augmented reality. So are you having to go out and make those reference films? Let's say we want to shoot on set of my living room. Do you have to come to my living room to get the dimensions and proportions?

Matthew Mazzone:

There's two answers. And so the first answer is no, you don't have to. So you need to do this. You would need to engage with what we call a virtual production supervisor. He's someone that built the environments. This is the guy who

Eric Wilson:

Knows

Matthew Mazzone:

Unreal Engine, like the back of his hand. So he can hand build these environments. It's probably cost prohibitive or there's tons of templates out there where he could get a template, modify the template to your specifications. And so that's the route that we went that made the most sense for what we were trying to achieve. Separately, there is some really cool technology out there. I believe it's called LIDAR scanning, where you can go to a location like your living room if you wanted to set the technology down and it scans the room, and then you can bring that environment into Unreal Engine, then modify it from there. So hey, if that wall needs to be blue, not yellow, we can do that, which opens up a whole new door possibility for the technology. That's really exciting.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah. So how common is this virtual production technology in political advertising?

Matthew Mazzone:

I haven't seen it. I don't know.

Eric Wilson:

You're the first person who's ever told me anything about it, which is why I wanted to have you on the show. So it seems new.

Matthew Mazzone:

I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've heard about it. If I'm thinking back, the VE rum of Swami I think had a presidential ad earlier this year where he was walking in front of a bunch of screens. I don't think that was the same technology. I don't think that was it. So no, I don't think it's common. I don't think it's been, so you're

Eric Wilson:

Seeing either out in the field where you're on location or you're doing in front of a stage in a studio environment. The crazy thing about this is we may not know if you do it well, but it seems like a real game changer. And so what are the advantages of using virtual production instead of on location or some of those studio shots that are more common?

Matthew Mazzone:

Before I answer that, just to go back to maybe why we haven't seen it yet, and I think there's a few reasons. It's very specialized technology at this point that was originally and still is used largely for big budget cinematic films or episodic tv. And the studio that I used in Atlanta is I think the first studio built specifically for branded and commercial content, meaning that it's kind of approachable. It's not on this huge sound stage. We have a bunch of Atlanta, there's sound stages in la, but this was a very specifically built stage for this sort of production. And I just don't think there's many of those out there at the moment. And to build on that, I also don't think that there are many operators out there who know how to do this. When I walked into this situation, I said, I want the DP who's used this technology before. I want the gapper who's worked in this environment before, and you need the virtual production supervisor who's super familiar. And there's all these very specific niches that I just don't think the political industry has wide exposure to. Sorry. So that was

Eric Wilson:

Answering the former question. No, that's fascinating. And so talk about the advantages that come with using virtual production.

Matthew Mazzone:

There's two that I like to harp on. One, it expands what's possible creatively, and so it just really opens up a lot of possibilities that otherwise would not be available. And then secondly is budget. I think it is way more efficient and you're able to accomplish big, bold creative ideas on a budget that otherwise would not be able to support those ideas.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah, I'm just thinking back to all the times, not wasted, but maybe wasted in the candidate's view of resetting, lighting, moving to different parts of the location that you're using, whereas this can, I would imagine you say, Hey, we're done in the living room. Now it's time to be on the farm, or whatever the template might be.

Matthew Mazzone:

That's a really great point. And that's it. I think you nailed it where I think we did seven locations in one day, which would not be possible in a practical environment, not

Eric Wilson:

In a 24 hour day.

Matthew Mazzone:

No, not at all. And just to build on that, it's not like we just had one subject talking to camera, and that was it. We had 30 people, we had actors, we had props, we had hair and makeup. It was a large crew. And my point is there's no way we could have accomplished seven locations in one day.

Eric Wilson:

And I think just even from the staff time thinking about having to track down permits and getting permission and blocking off streets, whatever those sort of logistical details go into it, this kind of takes it out the window.

Matthew Mazzone:

That's right. I was actually just thinking of a scenario, and I don't know if legal has caught up to this yet. For instance, you can't set a tripod in front of the US Capitol. I don't think you can hold a camera, but you can't set a tripod down. But with this technology, you could hypothetically be in front of the US capitol on a tripod. No problem. Right?

Eric Wilson:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big game changer here is so obviously it saves you the cost of locations that you can go to, but think about all the locations you can't go to. So we see this every year. Someone uses footage from a committee hearing or they're talking on the house floor or Oh, is that person on federal grounds and their campaigning? Well, you can now say, look, it looks like I'm in my capital office. The capital's out the window there, but I didn't violate any campaign finance laws or ethics rules.

Matthew Mazzone:

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I think just to think into the future about hypotheticals. If a candidate wanted to talk about the border, right? I guess they don't have to go to the southern border now, you could create an environment that would be very similar. The possibilities are endless. Frankly.

Eric Wilson:

You're listening to the campaign trend podcast. I'm speaking with Matthew Mazzone from Ascent Media about virtual production. It's a new type of technology that it is just starting to creep into the commercial and brand space. And of course, 2024 being an election year, it's getting some test drives here in political. So you mentioned Matthew, this sort of new technology. Do we have this uncanny valley problem like we do with robotics or avatars where the virtual set looks too perfect such that voters can tell? Or is it right there where as long as you mentioned you don't zoom in the camera too close, the limitations, it's undetectable,

Matthew Mazzone:

I think is more of an issue with virtual characters than it is with virtual environments. And so we did both. We utilized virtual environments and in a couple of scenes we brought in virtual characters.

Eric Wilson:

And

Matthew Mazzone:

I think you run into that issue with the characters. There's twofold. We had two situations where we were using the characters as extras in this room. They were out of focus, and we actually brought in real extras as well to blend in with 'em. And that worked great. The extras were static, they were out of focus. There was forgettable, but it looked like a larger scene that it maybe otherwise would have. So that worked. Where it didn't work necessarily as well was we wanted to highlight an actor outside sort of running around having movement. It was more of the focal point and it wasn't quite as believable. Got it. So I think that technology as it relates to character movement is still being developed.

Eric Wilson:

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about characters. That's awesome that you can do it, but it makes sense with Unreal Engine, anyone who has played a first person shooter or video game on their PC or Xbox in the last couple of years knows just how sophisticated this technology is. This may be the wrong time in the technology cycle to ask the question, but are there potential costs savings from using virtual production as opposed to the real world? Is it the time saved? I'm sure there's some expense associated with this technology for sure.

Matthew Mazzone:

Yeah, absolutely. But at the end of the day, if you're able to accomplish in a single shoot day because you had virtual production, what you otherwise would've had to spend four practical shoot days doing, then the cost savings add up real quick. What I would say is that there is another level of intentionality and planning that is necessary to make this successful due to all the moving pieces that are involved. You're not just dealing with gaffers and grips and lighting on set the day of. You're also dealing with a virtual environment that needs to match the practical world that you're designing. And so there are levels of intentionality that have to go into the pre-pro that otherwise wouldn't exist. But at the end of the day, like I said, one shoot day versus four, I think it's a huge cost savings.

Eric Wilson:

Well, and we always say that on campaigns, our most limited resources, it's time, especially candidate time. And so if you can, that's good, you free up the candidate to do more effective, better creative, then they can go make the phone calls and attend the fundraisers to pay for all of those TV spots. So it's a huge advantage there. When might it be better to be on location? Because sometimes we get to this case where when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And so obviously virtual production has some huge strengths. Where do you think going old school might better serve the campaign?

Matthew Mazzone:

At the end of the day, I want to always lead with authenticity because if you don't have that, I don't think you have an opportunity to emotionally connect with the viewer. And if the premise of your video or advertisement is centered around the location, this is where something happened or

Eric Wilson:

I grew up here.

Matthew Mazzone:

Yeah, exactly. That's right. So in those moments where the environment becomes the main character, you would benefit from being there practically.

Eric Wilson:

And we have a good friend who loves to use props and special effects and practical effects. And so that's sort of his calling card where that's probably not going to be suited to virtual production. So there are always going to be different styles aside from this kind of quick change, and obviously you don't have to worry about whether it's raining or not or what the light we're losing our light, that kind of stuff. What are some of the unexplored creative opportunities that we might see with virtual production in political?

Matthew Mazzone:

Let me answer it maybe a little bit differently than it was asked. Just based on my experience. Something that we thought of creatively after we already decided to use the technology that would not have been possible otherwise was showing the elapse of time. So we essentially had a character who was in their living room and they were going through a situation and we wanted to show how this character was still dealing with this situation, not just today, but tomorrow, a few weeks from now, next month, next year. And so you were able to do that very subtly by the leaves on the trees changing outside and the weather changing. And so it was spring, it was summer, it was bright, and then maybe it was fall and the leaves are orange or snowing or it was nighttime. You're able to very quickly adapt the environment to the story that you're trying to tell. And so adapting that to the more specific political landscape and candidate videos, I'm not sure, but I think it opens up a new level of creativity that would otherwise not be possible.

Eric Wilson:

And one of the things that I think is important for people to pay attention here is we are really focusing at the Center for Campaign Innovation on the need to do more testing with our ads before they get put on air. And so in order to do that, you need to produce more ads so you can test them. And so with this kind of technology, you're able to do that, so you could be testing different backgrounds or different settings, and so that really brings that into reach and hopefully makes it a little bit more affordable.

Matthew Mazzone:

You just gave me an idea actually. So if you wanted to do an ad about the economy? Yeah, an ad about the economy, how inflation has impacted the constituents. You could be in a restaurant giving the same strip or whatever, or a similar strip as a grocery store, as the hospital, as the car lot or home buying, whatever it is. You could sub in all these different locations. You could film all these in a few hours and by 5:00 PM have four 32nd ads to focus group that night at 8:00 PM It could happen fast.

Eric Wilson:

I think that's awesome. I don't think people, a lot of our listeners might only be consumers of the final product, but for those of us who've been on the other side of like, okay, you want to be on a car lot, okay, we have to now call a donor or supporter who might have access to a car lot, and what does their franchise agreement say? And the lawyer's going to make us blur out every Toyota logo we see, but we can't be on a Toyota lot that's not made in America with this. It's just like it becomes trivial.

Matthew Mazzone:

It does. And again, you don't want the technology to steal the story. You want the script and what's being discussed to make sure it's always leading. And so there's a balance there not wanting to be, when you use AI in ads, you want to disclose that you're not trying to mislead someone. And so would hate for this technology to become the story unnecessarily to distract from your actual point. Yeah,

Eric Wilson:

For sure. You're not really on the surface of Mars, for example, that kind of stuff. But I think there's a huge business to be made here for people who can do the virtual production of creating the templates of Do you want the capital, do you want the White House? Do you want a committee hearing room? Do you want a living room? It's just like, oh, wow, really cool. Yeah.

Matthew Mazzone:

It's funny you said that. I did not have that thought, but it was a couple years ago and I wanted to film an ad in the Oval Office. I needed that setting right for what the script was going to be. And funny enough, there's actually a few options here in Georgia. Tyler Perry has, I was going to

Eric Wilson:

Say Tyler Perry,

Matthew Mazzone:

And he had the Black House built out, and I have a couple of connections there, and I made a few phone calls and they said, sure, you can have it for 50 grand for the day. And needless to say, that was way out.

Eric Wilson:

The gag wasn't worth it,

Matthew Mazzone:

Right. There was another option actually up the street. It's private residence, but they wanted thousands of dollars as well. So no, it would've been really handy to have this technology a few years ago.

Eric Wilson:

Well, it is really cool, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. It was just a video that you shared about a project that hopefully we'll see soon. I'm sure it's in production right now, so if folks want to keep an eye on that, check out the Ascent Media website to maybe see that spot down the road. I don't know what it is. I'm not being cagey, so I don't think it's cut yet. So we'll keep an eye out for that. That's right. Matthew, thanks for joining us today. If you want to keep track of Matthew and his work, there'll be a link to his website and LinkedIn in our show notes. If this episode made you a little bit smarter or gave you something to think about, and I think speaking for the two of us here, it certainly gave us some ideas. All we ask is that you share it with a friend or colleague. You look smarter in the process, more people hear about the show. It's a win-win all around. So remember to subscribe to the Campaign Trend podcast wherever you listen to podcast, so you never miss an episode. Visit our website@campaigntrend.com for even more. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

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